Thanks for the novel Jae. :-p

There really is more a significance to most of what we do, than we tend to account for. However if you don't believe God's word as outlined in the Bible, there's not as much of a mutual foundation to begin to examine this "issue".

The following reading is interesting coincidence, because on the bus this morning, i was thinking about several things--the areas where i "lack" masculinity, as defined by American society (which is rife and sick these days with "Man-centered entertainment"), my personal relationship with homosexuality (my brother died of an AIDS related illness nearly 10 years ago), and how God somehow has wired me to really have an affinity to more quiet, "oppressed?" --i think "underdogs" is the word i'm looking for (there are a lot of young men struggling and getting dogged with either homosexual or heterosexual temptations, and are man enough to admit it, or any other kind of sin that tends to beat us down). Surely it has to do with my own personality and experience growing up as the Fat Kid who wasn't into the things "other guys" were.

At any rate, it was like God was saying something to the effect of--no..REALLY "love the sinner, hate the sin" (sometimes it's a Good Thing to bring up a cliche' in its proper context :). in the sense that you will defend against those who would oppress people because of anything they perceive as "offensive behaviour", however, you would NOT condone the lifestyle. I open up the YOB reading today and it's the scriptural reference to what God was trying to tell me this morning :). It's from John 7.53-8.24.

They kept on asking Jesus about the woman. Finally, he stood up and said, "If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone at her!" 8 Once again he bent over and began writing on the ground. 9 The people left one by one, beginning with the oldest. Finally, Jesus and the woman were there alone.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, "Where is everyone? Isn’t there anyone left to accuse you?" 11 "No sir," the woman answered. Then Jesus told her, "I am not going to accuse you either. You may go now, but don’t sin anymore."

Jesus is my BOY! he punked out the pharisees who were oppressing an adulterous woman, 'cos basically how the world can we accuse people, when we got so much cruft in us?! Particularly in these politically charged days, people all over the place are throwing up they self-righteous caps, as if they've never done dirt. The difference, of course, is that as believers, we *do* recognize dirt (all dirt, including our own) as dirt. "You may go now, but don't sin anymore".

So in one big sense Jeff, I think we see eye to eye--we see God's lack of accusation, of "disapproval", of a person, based on their situation. The fundamental difference, i think, is that I see God definitely calling the practice sin. For us to say "no it's not", is asking for a slap (from God of course :). By the way, some of these analogies are REAALLY easier to see when you are parenting. :) The difference however, of this view, and what we've seen politicized, is that the "politicizers" treat the people as if they were dirt, not the sin.

[crud i realize i just wrote a chapter as well]

Jeff,

Which god do you speak of? Is it a god that you and other people worship? Does this god have a name, and has it revealed itself to others in addition to you? Do you ever disagree with this god?

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I worship Jesus Christ. I believe that He is the perfect representation of GOD, and that He truly objectively exists, and I also believe that He has spoken to humanity throughout history and those words have been faithfully recorded in the Bible.

Now if those beliefs sound absurd to you, then this is an entirely different bucket of chicken! :) Your bias will be much more clearer then. We'll have to delve more into our presuppositions about truth, meaning, and god to find any basis for further discussion about morality. I'd love to have that chat with you, because so many people seem to think we Christians are idiots. =)

But yeah, if this Jesus & Bible stuff sounds strange to you, I'd really like to hear more about your god and how you've come to know so much about what it likes and doesn't like. What really makes your position on homosexuality morally compelling? Is it the opinion of this god that you have in mind?

Jeff, I think you are forgetting that the idea of "harm" is ultimately relationship based, not physically/anatomically based. The Bible speaks of GOD as the great Other - the third person involved in every interaction that we humans have. Let me illustrate that and indulge me a little bit by considering the following analogy:

Let's say you built a house. You designed different rooms for different purposes in the house - kitchen, bathroom, living room, etc. You paid an incredible amount of money to build this house, and you put in a lot of sweat, blood, and tears putting it all together yourself. It is truly is your beloved house. You made it, you own it.

And actually, you have set aside one of the rooms in the house as your den. It's your favorite room because it is your sacred place of study, solace, and profound reflections. You love that den and hold it dear.

One night, I break into your house while you're away, and I go straight in to your den, ignoring every other room. I proceed to knock all your books to the ground and start chucking a few of them into your fireplace. I break all your funiture, and spray paint "Fuck You" all over your walls. Last but not least, I end my party by taking a huge dump right in the middle of your beloved room.

All things considered, you can repair the physical damage that I've done to your den, right? Without too much effort, the Books can be replaced, the furniture redone, the walls repainted, and the poop scooped up. Not much harm done, right? You could get your den to what it was like before I came in, and it'd be all good, right?

Wrong. I have harmed you personally. Our relationship is now fractured, and I have "sinned" against you grieviously by going so far as to take a crap in your favorite, sacred space. I have offended you deeply, and only you know what it would take for me to earn your forgiveness, if that's even possible now.

The Bible says that GOD created the world, and He also created human beings, both men and women. The Bible also says that He made human beings (both genders) something like Himself (in His image), so that within the male/female relationship and its subsequent union, He would be glorified and honored. On top of that, through this union of loving relationship between man and woman, more loving relationships would enter into the world (ie. children).

It's a bit mysterious, but GOD designed man and woman to love one another, and express between themselves a committed intimacy that would reflect who GOD is, because He designed it all, made it all, and owns it all.

That's the thing about GOD's design for sexuality and our rejection of it. He designed it to be a deep expression of committed love between a man and a woman (2 necessary, complementary beings), and whenever we use it for selfish pleasure, or to assert our own self-rule, it becomes like a pile of offensive crap that we leave on His world, His house. He takes that sort of rejection personally, and He will judge it accordingly.

You see Jeff, false expressions of sexuality grieves GOD deeply because it is settling for a lot less than what He lovingly originally intended. It would be like if you bought an expensive gift for your friend, and instead of thanking you for it and enjoying it, he sells it on eBay so that he can buy a Backstreet Boys CD for 10 times more than its worth. Sure, a man can love another man, and do so deeply - there's nothing wrong with that. It becomes a problem tho', because men weren't designed to express their love for one another in this way. It's like the deep love that we have for our own children - GOD did not intend for us to express our love and union with them by having sex with them. That expression was reserved and designed for the monogamous female male bond. It's just how it works, and it works really well when its done right, in a loving, committed marriage.

You see Jeff, "sin" isn't just this list of naughty do's and don'ts and arbitrary rules. "Sin" is about an attitude of the heart that is ultimately self-centered, self-sufficient, and self-worshipping. That's what GOD is judging when we settle for anything less than heterosexual sex in the committed bonds of marraige - it is SIN because it offends God's design, and it opens the potential for destroying love in relationships. That is why GOD forbids us from having sex with animals. That is why GOD forbids Adults from having sex with infant children.

There are pedophiles out there today who are having consensual sex with minors. And many of them are now starting to argue that no harm is being done and that they were born as pedophiles and genetically predisposed to be that way.

So, if they're right, we should not impose any "harmful" biases with religion-sanctioned prejuidce against them. In fact, that would be discrimination, and discrimination is the greatest evil. We should embrace pedophiles, and we should start to encourage our children to take on older lovers from a younger age.

Sexual immorality is real. And yes, it may not cause STD's or AIDS, or an Aborted pregnancy every time it happens, but what it does do is it spits in the face of GOD (who rightfully owns all the world, and us as its creator).

whew! that's alot. But i gotta run now...

but hey, i see that you live in the Capitol Hill area. I used to live there too, and i come over to seattle often. It'd be great to carry this discussion on in person sometime if you get tired of blog commenting.

I don't believe god would disapprove of or be harmed by an action that doesn't hurt people. That's a simplification, but it's the gist of what I believe.

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for your comments. I'd like to ask you tho' - why do you believe that homosexuality is NOT a "sin"?

Is it because you don't believe in "sin", or because you have a different idea about what is right and wrong in human sexuality?

At least that way we can find out why my bias is so essentially "harmful" and yours is not. :)

-j

I said that it's "encoded in religious language" because your guest blogger's harmful bias -- that being gay is wrong -- is buried in pseudo-inclusive religious language. It's only inclusive of gay people who feel their sexual orientation is sinful.

We have a fundamental disagreement about whether being gay is wrong. But I have to dismiss your's and your guest blogger's comment that "homosexuality is a sin," as religion-sanctioned prejudice.

Last. In an email, you said, "i think there's more freedom spoken of in Jae's writing than most other christians who would comment on homosexuality." But that's a bit like saying one apple isn't as bitter as the other. They're both still bitter.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure where the encoding is.

j.

It seems un-Christlike to encode one's prejudice in religious language.