RedHat Linux 9 and HP Pavillion ze5385

thanks to a few sources on the net concerning models of this ilk, i was able to gather how to get this bad boy working. I think i’m the first on the Net (that’s searchable at least) to deal with RH9 but i used people’s problems installing/running RH8 as a basis.

First off, i had to wipe everything and install from scratch, to have a dual-boot system. Partition magic just wasn’t working for the kid–it wouldn’t partition properly (upon the reboot & partitioning process it would report errors). grrr…it wasn’t too big of a thing, since i just got the laptop and losing stuff wasn’t problematic. so i basically destroyed everything by repartitioning my drive using the ‘cfdisk’ tool. i made a 40gig xp partition, 18 gig linux partition, the rest swap. as i’m slowly finding out though, i have less absolute need for a larger XP partition, as linux has come a Long Way since slackware 0.2, and even since redhat 7/8 (my most recent linux installs, on some desktops at my old job). it’s best to go ahead and install windows XP first, and use grub on your RH install, since grub will pick up all your other partitions and place them in the boot config. grub is pretty, and works nicely.

Symptoms:
disc 1 loads, but hangs on “loading ohci1394 driver….”

looked this up, and got several suggestions, ‘linux nousb’ etc…the one that actually works (and makes the most sense anyway but how was i to guess this off the bat…:)

linux nofirewire

so now when RH9 install loads up it won’t probe (and subsequently hang on) the firewire port on your laptop. okay install goes fine and dandy. upon reboot–hang like a mug! argh! it installed a kernel that is looking for the driver?! not exactly; i found out that kudzu is the cause of the problem…sooooo….okay…solution:

continue to hit ‘I’ like crazy (for interactive startup) when it asks you to when linux is booting…then when it asks, don’t load modules. After you boot up, you’ll have to turn off kudzu for all subsequent boots. just use ‘chkconfig –level 3 kudzu off’ (and if you’ll eventually be running X win ‘chkconfig –level 5 kudzu off’)

make sure in your grub.conf you have ‘nofirewire’ option at the end of whatever options grub sets up for your booting to the linux partition.

word so you got it booted. in the next writing i’ll hit you up with a quick post on how to the get X running shiny and nice….then there were issues getting my windows XP reinstall working properly too that i may want to address, for the dual booters!

as a side note–during my installs, i gave up on RH and did slackware 9 instead–the install works right off the bat–but the reboot is what killed me–i presume that after a slackware install and you’re returned to the command prompt–find out where your boot up will try to load the firewire driver (ohci1394 is about the best hint i can give), and disable it (in the correct runlevel ;), BEFORE you reboot again.

  • R3

    Hi,

    First, props to Jon for maintaining this interesting forum – I didn’t even know there are this many (semi-)happy ze5xxx Linux users out there!

    I am happy owner of ze5385 and I tried installing RH8 and 9 on this laptop. As everybody else, I ran into firewire/apm/X problems, got tired of tinkering and decided to try Debian and SuSE 8.2 instead (recently upped to 9).

    There is a nice writeup on Debian installation at:

    http://mung.net/~dude/install/brick_install/index.html

    It needs a bit of spelling/grammar cleaning, but it is clear enough to get things rolling.

    As for SuSE, I tried it on the Debian-on-ze5385us author’s recommendation and it does work really good.
    8.2 was cool with the dreaded firewire module, but didn’t know how to configure APM and modem during the inital installation. This was easily fixable via YAST and kernel recompile later.

    Couple of days ago I wiped the hard drive to repartition it (and reinstall WinXP in the smaller partition) and decided to put the newly arrived SuSE 9.0 as the Linux of choice.
    9.0 installer correctly found and installed absolutely everything – ieee1394, APM, modem, correct video chipset (still no 3Daccel though), sound, both wired and wireless NICs – everything.
    The only thing missing now is the hibernate option I grew to like in WinXP, but I hear that’s in the works too.
    Bottom line – if you want Linux working on ze5xxx with the least amount of effort, give SuSE a try.

    R3

  • Luis

    the solution of to run partition magic using a boot doesn’t work with my computer, I don’t have an external unit, can I boot from a CD? how?

  • http://www.nexgentechnologies.net/cpruitt cpruitt

    First off I just wanted to say thanks, this forum is what helped me get RH9 going on my notebook, so thanks for the help everyone, the following is some info that hopefully will return the favor…

    Just to let any of you Ze53xx owners out there know that your P4 is socketed, and can be upped to a 3.06Ghz P4 Northwood Cpu.. It is also a good idea to clean your notebooks internals periodically. To see good pics and a how to guide on taking apart your notebook, including pics of your socket 478, and how to clean the massive heatsink that cools your notebook, check out this guide…

    http://www.nexgentechnologies.net/cpruitt

  • erayl

    I just installed Fedora Core 1 on my ze5385. It generally works much better than RH9, but it was still necessary to kill FireWire support. To get ACPI working, you will have to add acpi=on to the end of you kernel line in /etc/grub.conf. It will look something like:

    kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.22-1.2115.nptl ro root=Label=/ rhgb acpi=on

  • Steve Chen

    Has anybody got the built-in wireless working on the ze5385?? Is the root of the problem the fact that there is no driver for the broadcom chipset? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

  • Praveen Jha

    Hi,
    I have bought HP ze4560us laptop. While loading Red hat Linux 9.0, it hanged in the post-installation phase, when the prompt comes to ask about creating Boot Diskette. There is no floppy drive in my laptop, but the mouse stops working.
    Still, I go ahead and then install XFree86 by using XFree86 -configure. It shows a screen after testing the server. But, just a X pointer on the screen and nothing else.
    What should I do in this case?
    How can I bring the graphic interface?

  • http://www.diarytherapy.com jon
  • erayl

    Steve – I’m using wireless to send this message now. It works fine on Fedora Core 1 (the _new_ Redhat).

  • erayl

    I have FireWire support running on Fedora Core 1:

    [root@localhost root]# /sbin/lspci
    00:00.0 Host bridge: ATI Technologies Inc: Unknown device cbb2 (rev 02)
    00:01.0 PCI bridge: ATI Technologies Inc PCI Bridge [IGP 340M]
    00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: ALi Corporation M5451 PCI AC-Link Controller Audio Device (rev 02)
    00:07.0 ISA bridge: ALi Corporation M1533 PCI to ISA Bridge [Aladdin IV]
    00:08.0 Modem: ALi Corporation Intel 537 [M5457 AC-Link Modem]
    00:09.0 Network controller: Harris Semiconductor Prism 2.5 Wavelan chipset (rev 01)
    00:0a.0 CardBus bridge: O2 Micro, Inc. OZ6912 Cardbus Controller
    00:0b.0 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB (rev 50)
    00:0b.1 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB (rev 50)
    00:0b.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB 2.0 (rev 51)
    00:0c.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments TSB43AB21 IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link)
    00:10.0 IDE interface: ALi Corporation M5229 IDE (rev c4)
    00:11.0 Bridge: ALi Corporation M7101 PMU
    00:12.0 Ethernet controller: National Semiconductor Corporation DP83815 (MacPhyter) Ethernet Controller
    01:05.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Radeon IGP 340M

    You need to modify /etc/modules.conf by adding two lines before the IEEE controller:

    pre-install usb-uhci modprobe yenta_socket
    pre-install ehci-hcd modprobe yenta_socket
    alias ieee1394-controller ohci1394

    Now — has anyone got the modem working?

  • Steve Chen
  • Songkrant Muneenaem

    Sawasdee krub, (Thai traditional greeting)

    Steve – I’m also the Linux newbie and from all information shared by all these nice persons I’m now using Fedora Core 1 on wire Ethernet to send this message now.

    Could you please share how to make the wireless work?

    (^_^)
    Songkrant

  • Songkrant Muneenaem

    Erayl, could you please share your trick(s) to make the wireless LAN working on Fedora?

    My apology to Steve from my former post, did you make it work?

    So far, I think Fedora is really cool, nice, nearly completed package with very few modification needed to complete the “successful” installation.

    I hope sooner I will use Fedora Linux more than Windows XP. Thanks Jon to make this space.(^_^)

    Have the nice weekdays to you all,
    (^_^)
    Songkrant

  • bob vigneau

    Jon,
    I bought a HP pavillion ze5414EA in Oct,2003.
    I’d like to get some technical info in it in English as well as any third party reports on iyts performance.
    Can you help?
    Thanks,
    Bob

  • Mark

    Hi Jon,
    Great work. Every problem I have encountered with redhat on my 5385 has been addressed.

    I’ve noticed a few people always wipe the hard drive to repartiton. You don’t need to. I found a great tool to resize NTFS disks. http://WWW.booitng.com
    Download BootIt Next Generation, follow the instructions to put it on a floppy. Boot with the floppy.
    Don’t install the software, just hit cancel, then hit partition work and resize your NTFS partition to make some free space for linux.
    I also used it to create a fat32 partion so I can boot using a freedos boot disk for some DOS real time motion control software and my ozzifox osciliscope software.

    As far as my install goes I’m done playing games with redhat. I’m taking R3′s advice and just ordered suse 9.0.

    Again, great work everyone
    Mark

  • MicroChip

    My experience: ZE5300 (xt5366wm) & RH8

    Initial install prompt:
    linux noprobe nofirewire

    Video:
    generic laptop display panel 1024×768

    Install proceeded normally, no hitches. When install was complete and it started to reboot I turned it off and inserted my knoppix cd. Booted into knoppix and edited two things …

    (1) /etc/rc.sysinit line 641 (in rh8 at least) where it loads the firewire drivers I simple commented the section out. This eliminates the need for ‘nofirewire’ in the boot line.

    (2) renamed /lib/modules//kernel/drivers/iee1394 to _iee1394 thus removing it from the kernel probing during the kudzo hardware scan and eliminating the need to either enter interactive mode at boot, or disable kudzo.

    MC

  • http://jon.madisons.com jon

    mark–great find. thanks!

    j.

  • Holm

    Hey guys. Thanks a lot for your posts here.
    I am trying to install RH9 on ze5570 (XP/RH9 dual) and, naturally, I ran into the problems discribed. This is my first encounter with UNIX, so I doubt I can even call myself a newbie, as I don’t know anything about it. I was able to edit the grab.conf file (after only 6 hours on the net finding out what a vi is:), but I cannot rename the ochi1394.o using knoppix. Similarly to what Vicky’s got stuck with, it refuses to rename (or chmod or do anything with the file) saying “Read-only file system”. I disabled “read only” on unmounted devices (except the hda1, which is used by XP), I remounted -w again, I’ve been searching the net for 3 days…
    Any hints? Thanks a million.

  • http://jon.madisons.com jon

    holm, as far as i understand, Knoppix is run completely from a CD-ROM device, so you’d be correct in saying that it’s read only. you’d have to install linux on a hard drive in order to actually make modifications to it.

    j.

  • Ed

    Knoppix will allow you to mount hard drive partitions as read/write. From the Knoppix desktop, right click on the drive and there will be a pop-up to change the mount options. To modify files with Knoppix, open a terminal window and type:

    su

    No password is necessary. Then modify to your heart’s content.

  • erayl

    Songkrant,

    >Erayl, could you please share your trick(s)
    >to make the wireless LAN working on Fedora?

    There are no tricks. With FC1, use the menus to get to System Settings | Network. You should see your wireless card on the hardware tab. Configure it from here and then activate it on the Devices tab.

    I use kwifimanager with the card after configuration.

  • Terry Brown

    I noticed that my Pavillion ze5400 / ze5475
    hung on the partition check (which seems to
    be impossible to avoid) on the Mandrake 9.0
    boot disk, but not 9.2. You could avoid the
    hang with the kernel parameter ide=nodma,
    just pointing it out here in case the same
    hang occurs for some other Pavillion / distro,
    obviously not an issue for Mandrake anymore.

    Thanks for all the advice collected here.

  • Nilanjan

    Hi,
    I have recently installed Mandrake 9.2 on my HP laptop ze5385 by partitioning. My Linux
    installation is working fine with internet and all but I see that the audio device is not working. Actually while installation it got stuck while not detecting the firewire (I1394 port) and hence I bypassed that and audio drivers were not installed too. When I click on the audio device icon, it says “couldn’t open mixe device /dev/sound/mixer” … I have looked into the directory system using nautilus to see that there is no directory called “sound” within /dev

    I am wondering if the audio drivers could be installed separately and get the audio to work on this machine.

    Any help in this regard is highly appreciated.

    thanks
    Nilanjan

  • funwa

    Sorry to sound so negative guys, but EVERYWHERE i’ve surfed, its all bad news about RH9!!

    I’m with R3 … why not just save yourself a lot of hassle and ditch the crap!!

    I bought RH9 and Mandrake 8.2 ….. RH refused to instal but Mandrake did … flawlessly!! For a newbie, what can i say but….. WOW!!

    I’m looking forward to Mandrake 9.2. which i shoud instal very soon.

    cheers

  • hemant

    Hi,
    I have installed RHL 9 on my laptop HP ze5501us. It hanged on firewire, which i rectified by doing nofirewire, now boot stops checking for new hardware. Even if i cross this part, by using apm-off acpi-off nofirewire command during boot time. Still i could not get my usb mouse or the touchpad to work.

    Can you suggest me how to get the usb mouse and the touchpad work for me? Also if you can please give the necessary commands to eliminate firewire checking. I know its repetitious, but still i am facing this problem for more than 2 weeks, till i got fed up with it, and now i see your site, guys i need help

  • David

    Awsome forum. Got everything working :-), except I am struggeling to get ACPI to work in RH. Any other ideas than the ones mentioned above?

    Thanks

  • Dave

    Please Help. I recently purchased a HP ze4560us laptop. Does anyone know a linux distribution that will support my hardware?

  • http://www.diarytherapy.com jon

    David, have you read this post yet? :)

  • Bruce Lilly

    I bought a ZE5385US mid-October. Answered no to the Windows EULA, installed SuSE 8.2. Most things worked, though ACPI didn’t. Bought and installed SuSE 9.0 shortly thereafter, and now ACPI is working reasonably well.

    Display, floppy, USB, wireless (Prism chipset), Ethernet, CD-RW, touchpad with scroll area, audio are all tested and working fine. Front of machine button/LED for wireless doesn’t seem to do anything; neither does “Disable radio” in KWiFiManager. Right-hand side buttons for audio volume and muting don’t do anything. Haven’t tried firewire, IR, internal modem, external monitor or keyboard/mouse, parallel port, SVHS output, PCMCIA slot.

  • Bruce Lilly

    I bought a ZE5385US mid-October. Answered no to the Windows EULA, installed SuSE 8.2. Most things worked, though ACPI didn’t. Bought and installed SuSE 9.0 shortly thereafter, and now ACPI is working reasonably well.

    Display, floppy, USB, wireless (Prism chipset), Ethernet, CD-RW, touchpad with scroll area, audio are all tested and working fine. Front of machine button/LED for wireless doesn’t seem to do anything; neither does “Disable radio” in KWiFiManager. Right-hand side buttons for audio volume and muting don’t do anything. Haven’t tried firewire, IR, internal modem, external monitor or keyboard/mouse, parallel port, SVHS output, PCMCIA slot.

  • http://www.jolijnenkarel.be karel

    Hello,
    This week I wanted to install RH9 on my ZE5500 and got de ‘loading ohci1394 driver-hang-screen’ too.
    As I am pretty new in Linux-stuff I tought my laptop just wasn’t compatible and I almost gave up.
    Until I came here!!
    Let me just say that this forum is realy great and it helped me a lot with installing my RH9.

    With the help of Jon and Ricky I got past the hang screen, and installed de cd’s, after rebooting it hangs again so I tried the knoppix-thing like ricky said but I can’t get the:

    “Change:
    kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/ hdc=ide-scsi

    To:
    kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/ hdc=ide-scsi nofirewire”

    -thing done, I have only Write permissions as root, and only in text-mode and I have no clue how to change that line in grub.conf file.
    Can anyone explain that too me ‘like I’m 5 year old’?

  • Ross

    Have HP ZE 5400 LCD if fried. Vertical lines etc. Colorful but need to see the desktop. Works fine with external monitor plugged in. HP will repair the LCD if I send it in.
    Question, is there a simple fix without sending it in?
    Thanks,
    Ross

  • Ross

    Sorry, scratch the ‘if’ on previous post LCD is fried is the message.

  • http://www.jolijnenkarel.be karel

    Problem solved, I want to thank Ricky. His post realy did it, RH9 is finaly running.

  • David

    yes, I read the post. :) Fortunately, Suse Linux 9.0 Professional indentified my hardware. I previously tried to install Mandrake 9.2, Fedora Core 1 and RH8. I’m please with it so far.

  • Abe

    Hi all;
    I have a ze5500 with windows xp home edition preinstalled on it. I tried to use partition magic to resize my partition and install linux RedHat 9. it didn’t work. I got too many errors after rebooting. So, I wipped out everything and did the partition manually. Installed windows xp from scratch. but the screen display was of the size of postcard.
    any suggestion?

  • Alan Anderson

    Thanks for the tips and hints on this page all of it good info. I have been evaluating laptops to replace my ageing toshiba. Question: Is the XP install disk tied to the hardware in any way? If I keep XP at all it will need to be installed under linux with vmware. I’ll let linux have the entire disk. So has anybody been able to install the XP disk that is shipped with the ze series pavillion under vmware?

  • Brian

    First, thanks to all. Awesome, informative, helpful site.
    I have a ze5560us. Before I found this site I tried installing Fedora. I made room on the drive with Partition Magic 8. The last message I saw was “locating disks”. I couldnt get the details, I guess I didnt hit the ‘i’ key “like a mug”. I thought the problem was with the disks. Back in PQ I moved the /boot partition to within the first 1024 cylinders. This shouldnt have been a problem but that is what I did. After many hours of frustration getting Fedora to load I couldnt get my windows to boot anymore either because the /boot partition and grub weren’t lined up, or something… any way. I had to use grub commands to boot back into windows:
    rootnoverify(hd0,0)
    chainloader +1
    boot
    This got me back into windows to format all the linux partitions. I started over with a redhat9 disk and immediately got the message about the ohci1394 driver which led me to this site!!
    After trying out knoppix to fix my fedora, I got by a few problems, the ohci1394, noprobe, nopcmcia, and hit other snags with the floppy.o, I don’t have a floppy drive and tried alias nofloppy but that didnt work either. Because of others comments on this site, I gave up on fedora and tried SuSE 9.0. I made a large FAT32 partition to share files between XP and linux. Everything installed fine! I tried the eval disk first and it booted without a hitch, so i did the full FTP install. I tap the off/on button and it gracefully shuts down. I have battery/charging indicators (KDE). I have wireless via the embedded Broadcom 802.11g using http://www.linuxant.com drivers($20, but will pay when eval is up). Scrolling mouse touch pad as well. A hearty thanks to jon for maintaining this site and also to all the contributors, thanks!!

    As for the VMware, I have installed the vmware software but havent put an OS up yet. My laptop came with an HP XP cd which appeared to be the basic XP home OS. It also came with 4 or 5 recovery CD’s that resets the partition table and reinstalls the OS with the hardware specific drivers.

  • phant0m

    As for your integrated wireless on the HP ze4560, I got mine working just fine, check out:
    http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net

  • green

    how to set Xconfig for HP ze5500

  • Daniel

    I’ve just bought a ze4600, deleted XP, made 3 partitions (XP, FAT32, Linux) and installed RH9 using ‘nofirewire’ at the boot. Boots fine, but except LAN, FAT32 and sound, all devices are unreachable. Kudzu and PCMCIA are off.

    Tried also to recompile the Kernel, but all went wrong. Couldn’t find the 2.4.20-20.9 version at RH website, as suggested by Swendrak (ze5300_howto.pdf), so I took the 2.4.20-30.9 and there is no ACPI patch for this version. Tried the latest one anyway, but they don’t like each other.

    So, if I understand well, summing up all that was said before, is the solution to give up RH and to get SuSE 9.0?

  • http://www.diarytherapy.com jon

    running kudzu is absolutely possible. it was mentioned here previously, i believe. could you scan a few posts up? you may want to also refer to the companion post on this blog:

    http://jon.madisons.com/2003/06/17/hp_pavilion_ze5385us_triboot.jon

    maybe it’s there.

    at any rate, if you’re going the red hat route, i suggest you begin to use Fedora anyway, as Red Hat is no longer supported on the end user front.

    http://fedora.redhat.com/

    j.

  • SSKAgent

    Ok here is my problem. I installed fedora and got that done. Then during boot up it freezs at the initalizing firewire controller. So i followed your instructions above and now an on Knoppix. I went into the console and typed in the commands, but I still can’t edit the grub.conf file because i don’t have permission. Please help

  • strap

    thanks for this great site
    but i am stuck when trying to gain acces to the grub.conf file. ive tried the mount and umount and everything i could find on this site about where i am, but it still says i dont have permission to read the file. What can i do so i will have acess to change the grub.conf file? i have a ze5470. please help

  • Rohit Toshniwal

    To get to hard disk from RedHat Install itself (Knoppix not needed)

    Hi,
    First of all thanks to this great post. I almost gave up on mu ohci hang when I found this site. There is a way to get to hard disk and make changes to filenames and rc.sysinit. Press Ctrl-Alt F2. That will take to a shell. Now “cd /mnt/sysimage”. This is “root directory” where Redhat is busy installing all the packages. Just rename the drive file and make changes.
    Great posts and thanks again.
    Rohit

  • kendi posu

    Hi,
    i’m looking for vga driver for IBM THINKPAD driver for ATI RADEON IGP 300m,i could download from ibm site is there other place i can download.

    cheer’s
    kendi

  • X

    Thank you so much for the posting. I was stuck while installing REDHAT9.0 on my HP pavilion ze5400. I read the posting here and also some other forums. Here is my summary of the installation of a dual OS on this laptop. (WinXP and RH9.0)
    Install WinXP first.

    Install redhat9.0 with the option
    ‘linux nofirewire’
    I select GRUB as the bootloader.

    For the first boot of RedHat9.0,
    when the screen comes to GRUB,
    use grub editor (‘e’) to change the boot line
    ‘kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/ hdc=ide-scsi’
    to
    ‘kernel /vmlinuz-2.4.20-8 ro root=LABEL=/ hdc=ide-scsi nofirewire’
    hit ‘b’ to boot.

    Hit ‘I’ to select interactive startup
    (Note: The first time I did not modify the boot line and the key ‘I’ did not work. However I press ‘I’, it did not come to the interactive startup. After I used grub editor, ‘I’ worked fine)

    If you would like to stop kudzu at the booting time, it’s fine to do this. Or you can disable it after the first bootup. I used the latter.

    After the first bootup, Diable pcmic and kudzu, otherwise, it will hang at “checking the new hardware”. (I did not diable kudzu the first time, the bootup hang at ‘Checking new hardware’).

  • Eliot Miranda

    The issue with Partition Magic failing to repartition the drive on reboot is to do with auto-update programs like HP Sonic running in Windows XP. I’m guessing that when Partition Magic builds the script to shrink a partition it writes the drive’s current status to the script and this is checked against the drive before repartitioning after reboot. Because the auto-update progams write to the disk (presumably at shut-down) Partition magic finds the drve has changed too much from when it wrote the repartitioning script.

    I was able to repartition successfully using Partition Magic 8 after I uninstalled HP Sonic and Symantect Live Update. I used the PerfectDisk disk defragmenting utility (free 30 day trial) to show me which files were “live”, because defragmenters can’t move open files. These “live” files (other than things like pagefile.sys) are typically owned by live update programs. So one can defrag and then look at the excluded file list to find out the “live” files and tnen uninstall or deactivate the applications that own them.

    Kind of ironic that Symantec owns PartitionMagic now and its own live update software is breaking it. Took a few hours to work out, too. Sigh….

  • bayo

    Am trying to install Suse 9.0 from DVD on my HP Pavilion ZE5602AE without success.I get an error that it cannot read sowfware from source and error is no proposal.
    Even if i chose to ignore and carry on without software installation it failed.I have carried out this installation on another pavilion model with success.I tried Suse 8.0 but his equally failed.What can i do to have it running?.

  • Terry Brown

    Just FYI I have wireless working fine on a ze5470us with linuxant’s $20 driverloader hack. It would be nice if it was free in the distros, but if you’d rather not wait it’s an option.

    (great forum)

  • http://www.diarytherapy.com jon

    interesting…i’ll have to look that up.

    j.